New York lawmaker wants to ban police use of armed robots

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HexRei

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Yep, they should not be even getting any money allocated for this even without weapons.

They should barely be getting money for guns, since they can't seem to keep executing people in plain sight, especially black people.

Agree.

If the situation has escalated so far that military equipment is needed to address it, that's what the National Guard is there for. It should NEVER be SOP.

There was a show on TV about the North Hollywood shootout and the discussion about how come the officers that were the first ones to respond were woefully unprepared for what it turned into. This in turned resulted in some of the officers in the LAPD being "trained" to use AR's and other military grade hardware.

It seems that the intentions behind a lot of the up-arming and use of military grade technology is a result of local government and above either not keeping up with the times and looking beyond the enforcement of the law and what other tools and departments are available to aid them, or the law enforcement departments and support groups such as the unions are presenting a "what about the children" type scenario to get what they want.

I feel that in some cases the intention is good, the execution and employment of the idea....yeah not so much and its taking some of these groups like the ACLU to call them on it to keep them in check.


IMO its more to do with the military's initiative of gifting hardware to the police. It's escalated like crazy following the the iraq/afghan conflicts and it's hard not to cynically look at it like a result of lobbying by weapons and gear manufacturers who enjoy the constant turnover because it lines their pockets. It is truly out of control as well. Police departments own MRAPs now, I mean what domestic threat really requires that response?
 
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HexRei

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We need to disarm the general population AND the police. The ease of obtaining guns is the problem.

Never going to happen. As a machinist making medical device prototypes, I have everything at hand to make just about any weapon I want from scratch. Even if all you have is a hand drill and a hacksaw you can make a shotgun with $10 of parts from the hardware store. There are people in third world countries making semi and full auto pistols and SMGs with a drill press, file, and mig welder.

There's a big difference from a world in which criminals are armed with homemade shotguns and a world where they are armed with semi-automatic weapons designed for combat
Homemade shotgun? Seriously? like a zip gun gun or is this person a metalsmith? Also, semi-automatic just means a round of ammunition is expelled every time you pull the trigger and another one is loaded. Which is actually how shotguns work unless you've got a break action or pump, but shotguns are actually extremely dangerous in any case.
 
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HexRei

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We need to disarm the general population AND the police. The ease of obtaining guns is the problem.

Never going to happen. As a machinist making medical device prototypes, I have everything at hand to make just about any weapon I want from scratch. Even if all you have is a hand drill and a hacksaw you can make a shotgun with $10 of parts from the hardware store. There are people in third world countries making semi and full auto pistols and SMGs with a drill press, file, and mig welder.

There's a big difference from a world in which criminals are armed with homemade shotguns and a world where they are armed with semi-automatic weapons designed for combat, a world where one person can kill dozens of people very quickly, a world where a group of people in combat gear feels free to invade government offices in order to intimidate lawmakers.

No, you can't eliminate all guns. That's not realistic. But there's a lot of room for what we can do.

How about a world in which criminals are armed with homemade fully-automatic weapons designed for combat? Do you really think making guns is that hard? It's easier to make full auto than semi. The cat's out of the bag, people know how to make guns. The only thing gun control can do is make it harder for the law abiding to defend their families.

CNC machines and 3d printers are getting better and cheaper. Making a gun capable of killing dozens in seconds is now a hobbiest level task. It's making one that's highly accurate and reliable that's hard.

I know I'll get downvoted because this is uncomfortable, but it's true.

Own a 3d printer and I would sure as hell not try to depend on a plastic receiver. If you are a CNC machinist you can of course machine the part from metal but they've been able to do that for decades.
 
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HexRei

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We need to disarm the general population AND the police. The ease of obtaining guns is the problem.

Never going to happen. As a machinist making medical device prototypes, I have everything at hand to make just about any weapon I want from scratch. Even if all you have is a hand drill and a hacksaw you can make a shotgun with $10 of parts from the hardware store. There are people in third world countries making semi and full auto pistols and SMGs with a drill press, file, and mig welder.
Notice he didn't say the existence of guns was the problem, but the ease of obtaining them. Not everyone has the skill to whip up a zip gun that's more deadly to the person in front of it than behind it.

If you can change a tire you can make that shotgun, and itt will work. It's not rocket science. Or if you're that mechanically challenged, you can steal a gun or pay someone else who is proficient is hacksaw and hand drill.

Check this out; most are made in countries that ban civilian firearms:

https://homemadeguns.wordpress.com

Prohibition doesn't work. And now that you can buy a 3d printer that prints fiber reinforced materials it's even easier.

You can also easily make a bomb using common household materials, instructions are available online, however this country( US ) does not seem to have a bomb problem, just a gun problem, why is that?


Romanticisation rather than logic. There are countries with extremely high gun ownership but they don't decide that they are the best way to solve problems.
 
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HexRei

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Never going to happen. As a machinist making medical device prototypes, I have everything at hand to make just about any weapon I want from scratch. Even if all you have is a hand drill and a hacksaw you can make a shotgun with $10 of parts from the hardware store. There are people in third world countries making semi and full auto pistols and SMGs with a drill press, file, and mig welder.
Notice he didn't say the existence of guns was the problem, but the ease of obtaining them. Not everyone has the skill to whip up a zip gun that's more deadly to the person in front of it than behind it.

If you can change a tire you can make that shotgun, and itt will work. It's not rocket science. Or if you're that mechanically challenged, you can steal a gun or pay someone else who is proficient is hacksaw and hand drill.

Check this out; most are made in countries that ban civilian firearms:

https://homemadeguns.wordpress.com

Prohibition doesn't work. And now that you can buy a 3d printer that prints fiber reinforced materials it's even easier.

You can also easily make a bomb using common household materials, instructions are available online, however this country( US ) does not seem to have a bomb problem, just a gun problem, why is that?


Romanticisation rather than logic. There are countries with extremely high gun ownership but they don't decide that they are the best way to solve problems.

If you're talking about the Swiss. They have a lot of firearm regulations. Just to name a few:

- A central government registry of every firearm that has been sold/resold since 2008.
- Canton-specific registries of firearms within their borders, for each Canton without exception.
- Firearms and ammunition must be stored separately and secured at home.
- A need for a firearm must be demonstrated to obtain a carry permit, which is renewed every five years.
- Items such as laser sighting devices and suppressors are not allowed for civilian use.

All that, and they still have about 3x the gun deaths per capita of Germany.

I think you know that the gun death statistic is simply because people with guns are more likely to commit suicide with guns when they are available. If you subtract suicides actual violence (on others) is lower than the US.
 
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HexRei

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People trying to change facts by voting down lol. GJ THERE HERO.

Probably because you didn't respond to the comparison with Germany.

Gee, how does linear time work? He didnt post that until AFTER what you responded to me over, so while I would love to travel back in time to pre-emptively respond to posts, I dont think the technology is there yet.
 
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HexRei

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People trying to change facts by voting down lol. GJ THERE HERO.

Probably because you didn't respond to the comparison with Germany.

Gee, how does linear time work? He didnt post that until AFTER what you responded to me over, so while I would love to travel back in time to pre-emptively respond to posts, I dont think the technology is there yet.

You previously responded to a post about Switzerland vs. Germany by comparing Switzerland to the US.

Sorry about your reading comprehension, that must be hard.

I thought it was pretty obvious that I had disroven that by pointing out that gun DEATHS and gun VIOLENCE are not the same thing. Switzerland has more gun deaths but they are a result of their citizens (of which many kill themselves, its a global problem) using them on themselves largely instead of other methods, probably because its quick, simple, and hopefully painless. Switzerland's overall murder rate is like half that of germany's. It was an invalid comparison to begin with. Its counting suicides into the rate artificially to obscure facts.
 
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HexRei

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People trying to change facts by voting down lol. GJ THERE HERO.

Probably because you didn't respond to the comparison with Germany.

Gee, how does linear time work? He didnt post that until AFTER what you responded to me over, so while I would love to travel back in time to pre-emptively respond to posts, I dont think the technology is there yet.

You previously responded to a post about Switzerland vs. Germany by comparing Switzerland to the US.

Sorry about your reading comprehension, that must be hard.

I thought it was pretty obvious that I had disroven that by pointing out that gun DEATHS and gun VIOLENCE are not the same thing. Switzerland has more gun deaths but they are a result of their citizens (of which many kill themselves, its a global problem) using them on themselves largely instead of other methods, probably because its quick, simple, and hopefully painless. Switzerland's overall murder rate is like half that of germany's. It was an invalid comparison to begin with. Its counting suicides into the rate artificially to obscure facts.

Switzerland has twice the rate of gun homicides too, compared to Germany. Sorry about your reading comprehension.
And half the overall homicide rate. Sorry about your inability to separate apples from oranges. Obviously if guns are more available they are going to account for more deaths, but is it better to have twice the homicide rate through other tools like stabbing, beating, and choking?
 
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HexRei

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Not sure about that. However a quick check and Germany has an overall homicide rate of 1.16 per 100k in 2016. Switzerland was .59 per 100k on 2016. I suppose it is possible the gun homicide rate for Switzerland is twice that of Germany. But Germans are finding a way to kill each other at twice the rate of the Swiss by other means.
Your source?

(I hate quote snipping)

I can cover that one since I already did some research. Figures may vary some year to year, but...

https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indica ... 5/rankings

(Source: UN Office on Drugs and Crime's International Homicide Statistics database.)


Germany is about twice that of Switzerland.
 
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HexRei

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We need to disarm the general population AND the police. The ease of obtaining guns is the problem.

Never going to happen. As a machinist making medical device prototypes, I have everything at hand to make just about any weapon I want from scratch. Even if all you have is a hand drill and a hacksaw you can make a shotgun with $10 of parts from the hardware store. There are people in third world countries making semi and full auto pistols and SMGs with a drill press, file, and mig welder.
Notice he didn't say the existence of guns was the problem, but the ease of obtaining them. Not everyone has the skill to whip up a zip gun that's more deadly to the person in front of it than behind it.

FGC-9 proves otherwise.
I wonder how many shots you can get out of reliably and what materials. The print instructions suggest a Creality Ender 3 or above (which happens to be what I own) and sometimes my little baby groots and nekokats fall apart with PLA. I wouldn't print this unless I was willing to blow up my own hand.
 
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HexRei

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I'd rather see an armed robot than an armed cop TBH. at least you know the bots body cam is on or it can't see. Reduces "heat of the moment" defenses too.

Hell take the cops guns and give them all an armed robot partner it'll be safer for police and citizens and ensure oversight has more detail to work with in cases where a shot is taken.
You're assuming that a robot will make better decisions than a live officer. There is no AI on earth (unless someone is keeping it a secret) that can handle the variety of scenarios police encounter, read situations, understand how best to defuse or otherwise handle the issue. So the human officer will still be making all the calls. The robot would at best be a better shot.
 
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HexRei

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If only that were it. Unfortunately that's not what gun control advocates are really going for - they want, in the car example, to decide what car you can buy and when and how you use it and where to and how far you can drive. In short, gun control advocates want to control the 2nd amendment right and the individual exercise of the right (for legitimate gun owners).
Tell me more about what gun control advocates want.

Quoting the candidate's past comment about selling back AR-15s and AK-47s, moderator David Muir asked O'Rourke: "Are you proposing taking away their guns? And how would this work?"

O'Rourke answered, "Hell, yes, we're going to take your AR-15, your AK-47."

Source: https://www.npr.org/2019/09/12/76038680 ... n-buybacks

Most people agree with him.

"Would you support or oppose a mandatory buy back program in which the federal government would require assault weapon owners to turn in those weapons in exchange for payment?"

Fifty-two percent said Yes. The polls listed on that page show large majorities of people want stricter gun control laws in general.
I would question the question itself because the wording makes the results weak. There is no one definition of assault weapons, not as an industry standard or legally, as it varies by region in law. Many people probably do not know exactly what they were being asked, just that "assault" sounds scary.
 
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HexRei

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If only that were it. Unfortunately that's not what gun control advocates are really going for - they want, in the car example, to decide what car you can buy and when and how you use it and where to and how far you can drive. In short, gun control advocates want to control the 2nd amendment right and the individual exercise of the right (for legitimate gun owners).
Tell me more about what gun control advocates want.

Quoting the candidate's past comment about selling back AR-15s and AK-47s, moderator David Muir asked O'Rourke: "Are you proposing taking away their guns? And how would this work?"

O'Rourke answered, "Hell, yes, we're going to take your AR-15, your AK-47."

Source: https://www.npr.org/2019/09/12/76038680 ... n-buybacks

Most people agree with him.

"Would you support or oppose a mandatory buy back program in which the federal government would require assault weapon owners to turn in those weapons in exchange for payment?"

Fifty-two percent said Yes. The polls listed on that page show large majorities of people want stricter gun control laws in general.
I would question the question itself because the wording makes the results weak. There is no one definition of assault weapons, not as an industry standard or legally, as it varies by region in law. Many people probably do not know exactly what they were being asked, just that "assault" sounds scary.

You don't like the results, so you speculate that the poll respondents are idiots. Got it.

That's not even remotely what I said. Re-read. Or read again for the first time since it seems like you missed most of my words.
 
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HexRei

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Not one police academy in the US is even willing to consider training the people that pass through its doors, any de-escalation techniques. They all teach pull the gun, pull the trigger, and keep pulling it until the victim is dead.
That is just bullshit. I personally know an LEO who graduated academy and they asbolutely do teach de-escalation techniques. You don't have a clue what tyou're talking about making such a broad generalization proves it.


Seriously, where is your data there. I assume YOU did a survey of police academy curriculum around the entire country to figure this out, right? Oh what's that, you are just repeating something you heard during your Tumblr-based education? If you're going to just lie, I have no interest in speaking with you. Bye.
 
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HexRei

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Romanticisation rather than logic. There are countries with extremely high gun ownership but they don't decide that they are the best way to solve problems.
Which countries are these?

There are many pages of discussion already in this thread about this.
 
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HexRei

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pi.squared wrote:

Not one police academy in the US is even willing to consider training the people that pass through its doors, any de-escalation techniques. They all teach pull the gun, pull the trigger, and keep pulling it until the victim is dead.

That's not true. Some examples: Washington state police academy trains de-escalation. Oregon's police academy's teach de-escalation techniques. Oklahoma city police academy teaches de-escalation. Hundreds of police officers attend de-escalation training each year at one of the many places set up around the country for it. Various organizations train police officers every year, for example the "National De-escalation Training Center"..


Yep. The officer I referenced is a Washingtonian and I live in Portland, where I did hospital security for a while and had many police interactions (first thing I did if things got bad is call for police backup, and OHSU has its own police force)- they were always professional and polite even in cases where people were attempting to commit criminal acts. The only incident of misconduct I personally witnessed was from a fellow licensed security officer, not a cop. Police are not DA's and can't always solve every problem on the spot, that's what civil or criminal suits are for, but in my experience they always want to minimize the drama in an interaction even if only because it makes their day harder if they don't. They have to fill out mountains of paperwork just to explain why they fired their weapon. I can't speak to some other regions of the country where the mindset may be different but certainly de-escalation is a major tactic here.
 
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HexRei

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1. There are non-gun alternate quick and decisive methods of suicide and they are more easily available. Quick access to suicide does not depend on firearms like gun control or gun-specific red flag laws advocates want to put forth.

Name one! Pretty much all other forms of suicide are resistant to impulse, or require a definitive "I am going to kill myself" act that is vastly different than tugging on a little piece of metal. I imagine you're thinking of hanging, but that's not necessarily quick, and also not necessarily definitive. It also requires a lot of preparation with many points to turn back. Gun suicide has little of that.

Besides that, the mere fact that alternatives exist doesn't make a thing less dangerous, or regulating that thing pointless. That's just an agenda talking.

I would argue that the barrier to utilization for obtaining a gun (its not like they're free, even in the US) is arguably no more or less hard than finding a good bridge to drive or just jump off. Or a bottle of opiates to OD on. Or a piece of rope and a chair.
 
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HexRei

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1. There are non-gun alternate quick and decisive methods of suicide and they are more easily available. Quick access to suicide does not depend on firearms like gun control or gun-specific red flag laws advocates want to put forth.

Name one! Pretty much all other forms of suicide are resistant to impulse, or require a definitive "I am going to kill myself" act that is vastly different than tugging on a little piece of metal. I imagine you're thinking of hanging, but that's not necessarily quick, and also not necessarily definitive. It also requires a lot of preparation with many points to turn back. Gun suicide has little of that.

Besides that, the mere fact that alternatives exist doesn't make a thing less dangerous, or regulating that thing pointless. That's just an agenda talking.

I would argue that the barrier to utilization for obtaining a gun (its not like they're free, even in the US) is arguably no more or less hard than finding a good bridge to drive or just jump off. Or a bottle of opiates to OD on. Or a piece of rope and a chair.
Guns are more effective. It's a contributing factor to the gender differences in successful suicide attempts in countries where guns can be acquired by the general populace. It accounts for just over half of all suicides in the US each year, and studies consistently show that reduced access to firearms via gun control reduces the number of suicides in the US. We also see more suicides in households with guns than without.

Source for the US suicide rate vs gun access? I'd like to see if it accounts for factors like gun ownership being more prevalent in areas where suicides in general are more prevalent (such as poor areas), or other factors that might confound any sort of correllation, and if the authors considered it causation.
 
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HexRei

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If it has a 30 round magazine it is obviously meant to kill humans in a war zone.

Obviously?

nope. the reason for the 30 round magazine was more practical than anything else; The troops would not need to reload as often and could carry more ammo more easily, and to save lives. They were not meant to "kill humans in a war zone", no weapon magazine is meant to "kill humans in a war zone" as the magazine does not kill anyone even if it may hold the ammo that does. Before that the troops carried 20 round magazines when the M-16 first was introduced. The service rifle prior to the M-16 was the M-14 and it used a 20 round magazine, so they just ported the 20 round magazine idea across to the M-16. But for the M-16 there was a different bullet, the 5.56x45 mm for the M-16 which was lighter and smaller and the M-14 used a 7.62×51mm which was heavier and weighed more. The taper on the 5.56x45 mm is steeper, more than the 7.62×51mm, so the curve on the magazine is able to be more than it was with the M-14 7.62×51mm round which is why the M-14 never moved to a 30 round magazine wide spread use for the troops as it would have extended down too far, even if curved, while the troop was in the prone position or barricade firing position thus forcing the troop to raise higher or expose them self more and thus becomes more of a target. The 5.56x45 mm 30 round magazine represented the compromise between more ammo and less reloads and the need to expose the troop less in certain firing positions, it does not extend down as far (as say a M-14 30 round magazine would) because of being able to have the steeper curve which bought the magazine up towards the weapon more thus allowing more ammo and less reloads while also allowing a troop to have a lower profile thus present less of a target in certain firing positions which at the time the two most common used was the prone and over the barricade (e.g. sand bagged positions) positions.

Because of the need to not reload as often and carry more ammo more easily with a lighter weight round (more ammo and not reload as often because the "enemy" had developed or used prior to the US a 30 round magazine for the AK-47) and the need for the troop to present a lower profile thus less of a target. The move to a 30 round magazine for the 5.56x45 mm round was so the troops would not need to reload as often and could carry more ammo more easily at a lighter weight and to help save their lives by allowing them less reloads and more ammo and a lower firing profile in certain positions thus exposing their selves less.

You can thank the USSR for the 30 round magazine if you want.

All the practical advantages you describe are practical advantages to soldiers in a combat zone, not practical advantages to civilians performing a lawful action with a firearm.

In terms of civilian lawful self-defense encounters, the average number of shots fired is TWO. A snubnose revolver or a subcompact single-stack pistol is totally adequate for realistic personal defense scenarios. And a similar-capacity handgun, or a shotgun with a tubular magazine (5 to 8 rounds), is totally adequate for realistic home defense scenarios.

Locating magazines really isn't a realistic measure to control. Of all the parts I wouldn't mind constructing with my 3d printer, larger magazines are around the top of the list, because I can just discard them cheaply.
 
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HexRei

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1. There are non-gun alternate quick and decisive methods of suicide and they are more easily available. Quick access to suicide does not depend on firearms like gun control or gun-specific red flag laws advocates want to put forth.

Name one! Pretty much all other forms of suicide are resistant to impulse, or require a definitive "I am going to kill myself" act that is vastly different than tugging on a little piece of metal. I imagine you're thinking of hanging, but that's not necessarily quick, and also not necessarily definitive. It also requires a lot of preparation with many points to turn back. Gun suicide has little of that.

Besides that, the mere fact that alternatives exist doesn't make a thing less dangerous, or regulating that thing pointless. That's just an agenda talking.

I would argue that the barrier to utilization for obtaining a gun (its not like they're free, even in the US) is arguably no more or less hard than finding a good bridge to drive or just jump off. Or a bottle of opiates to OD on. Or a piece of rope and a chair.
Guns are more effective. It's a contributing factor to the gender differences in successful suicide attempts in countries where guns can be acquired by the general populace. It accounts for just over half of all suicides in the US each year, and studies consistently show that reduced access to firearms via gun control reduces the number of suicides in the US. We also see more suicides in households with guns than without.

Source for the US suicide rate vs gun access? I'd like to see if it accounts for factors like gun ownership being more prevalent in areas where suicides in general are more prevalent (such as poor areas), or other factors that might confound any sort of correllation, and if the authors considered it causation.

One of the challenges with suicide rates and gun ownership rates is that suicide rates in general are much higher in rural areas with harsh winters, even in other countries with very strict firearm laws. Countries like Russia, Lithuania, and Belarus have suicide rates twice that of the United States. Meanwhile Caribbean countries have some of the world's lowest suicide rates despite incredible poverty in some countries (Barbados has the world's lowest suicide rate).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

Within the USA, that pattern holds true as well. Wyoming, Alaska, and Montana have the nation's highest suicide rate. So is the problem guns, or climate? Because Arizona is in the bottom third and it's chock-ful of guns as well.

https://www.usatoday.com/list/news/depr ... ck=arizona

I don't disagree. Places where people are more likely to have guns AND be miserable are going to result a greater percentage of suicides being by firearm.
 
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HexRei

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Well I'm convinced I don't want any neighbors as frightened as you carrying weapons.

I'm not at all convinced the story you are telling is true, but if it is you should move. Guns are not going to make you feel safe or be safe if gangs of white people are attacking you and your wife.

Sounds like rabid gun nut wankery.

The guy you are arguing with mostly, Miltov, open carries a pistol if I am remembering a conversation from a couple months ago correctly. He is a strong proponent of the right to own and use firearms. Arguing with him as if he is some kind of extremist isn't a good look.

Edit - talking to defbca if that is unclear to anyone.

I'm not arguing with him like some kind of "extremist". .

I don't care if he open carries or not or who he is, its just different opinions.

personally, I don't care what you believe. What would you have done to help anyway - pull out your phone and complain about it on the internet?

Its over now, but while it was going on it was like living in hostile enemy territory. Not everyone is able to just leave their home and family, we had some family illness issues that meant we had to stay.

yes, guns did indeed make us safer overall even though stuff did happen. They became more hesitant to attack when they realized we (as in community members) would fight back and had the means and capability to do so. Almost every time they faced a person carrying they ran, and that saved a bunch of people. Like I said before, they were cowards when it came to encountering someone who would fight back and had the capability to do so.

Hey, are you this guy;

https://nationalpost.com/news/walt-wawra

An American tourist who felt the need to pack heat in a Calgary park has set off a storm of social media ridicule. And now it’s emerging that the “very aggressive” strangers he encountered may have just been representatives from an oil company giving out free passes to the Stampede.

You sound like this guy, getting spooked by anyone approaching you trying to give you free passes to an event. Better pull out your high capacity rifle in case you need 30+ bullets!

Nope that's not me.

I don't get spooked, I face up to the challenge and overcome it and live.

You need to read your linked article a little more closely. Its adorable that you posted the part trying to make it look like he had a gun - typical gun control advocate tactic.

I knew he didn't you nonce. That is the whole joke. He wished he had a gun so he could face these heinous attackers and most likely shoot them, when as it turns out, thank goodness there are laws in Canada preventing idiots such as this guy carrying a gun around a park.

The joke continues with you as you then go on to state; "I face up to the challenge and overcome it and live."

There was no challenge! You are behaving exactly as I suspected you would. You are the same as this nutjob. There was nothing to face, in Canada it is safe to approach a stranger and ask them if they would like free tickets to the Stampede. But if you approached this guy in San Antonio to try and give him something he might shoot you, facing "up to the challenge" and overcoming these evil-doers as you so quaintly put it.

My goodness....

In Canada last week we had a tragic mass knifing in which one person died and 7 were injured. All but guaranteed had this murderer been in the States and not Canada it would have involved a gun and many more deaths. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

Canada's overall homicide rate is still around 3 times that of Switzerland, despite gun ownership being higher in Switzerland. This may be related to Switzerland's compulsory training for males and the accompanying respect for the weapon for defense as opposed to the dick swaggering way we often treat them in the US.
 
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HexRei

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1. I object to the blatant false reasoning being applied for the current gun control efforts. The reasoning is that mass shooting and intentional gun violence happen so we must ban or restrict guns and 2nd amendment rights. These people that did mass shootings and intentional gun violence are a very small percentage (less than 0.1%) of the total gun owners of ~72,000,000 (those reporting owning guns in the Pew, Harvard, and Northeastern surveys). Yet gun control advocates seek to limit and restrict the exercise of the second amendment right for gun owners who have done nothing wrong while doing nothing to address the issue of mental illness and criminality responsible for mass shootings or intentional gun violence.

Less than 0.004% of all nuclear bombs ever caused any damage, so I think everyone should be free to have them.
It's easier than you think. There is a reactor at a college campus (my ex's alma mater, in fact, and Steve Jobs') just a few miles from me with fissionable material that is easily accessible. Then its just a matter of putting it into a housing with explosives (aso easy to get, in fact easier than the uranium) to compress the reaction.
 
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HexRei

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1. I object to the blatant false reasoning being applied for the current gun control efforts. The reasoning is that mass shooting and intentional gun violence happen so we must ban or restrict guns and 2nd amendment rights. These people that did mass shootings and intentional gun violence are a very small percentage (less than 0.1%) of the total gun owners of ~72,000,000 (those reporting owning guns in the Pew, Harvard, and Northeastern surveys). Yet gun control advocates seek to limit and restrict the exercise of the second amendment right for gun owners who have done nothing wrong while doing nothing to address the issue of mental illness and criminality responsible for mass shootings or intentional gun violence.

Less than 0.004% of all nuclear bombs ever caused any damage, so I think everyone should be free to have them.
It's easier than you think. There is a reactor at a college campus (my ex's alma mater, in fact, and Steve Jobs') just a few miles from me with fissionable material that is easily accessible. Then its just a matter of putting it into a housing with explosives (aso easy to get, in fact easier than the uranium) to compress the reaction.
So you can get reactor fuel, and you can get the explosives, and you've got access to precision machine tools to meet the tolerances... how are you going to enrich the fuel high enough to actually make a nuclear bomb out of it, as opposed to just a dirty bomb? TRIGA reactors don't run on weapons grade uranium. Or were you planning on running enough fuel cycles through the reactor and then refining out the plutonium?


I'm not crazy enough to actually plan it out, and I'm a biologist, not a physicist, so I would have to do some due diligence anyway. Sounds like you've put more thought into it than I.
 
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HexRei

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^--- ignores salient points (much more likely to get shot in the US than any other western world country and then ironically no help from the government when it does occur, sure they'll bail out banks but will they help you? Nope!) and raises others in hopes of obfuscating the issue....

... but, but... what about the Remington 700 platform!?

I'm more likely to laugh my self to death reading your incessant gun control advocate whining than to be killed by gunshot anywhere in the world.

No, my humor isn't for you. I can tell. You are Bruno Kirby in Good Morning Vietnam. Or maybe Hank Kingsley... either way you are that kinda guy.

Its nice that you finally admitted all this is humorous to you, a joke to you.

The only thing that he has admitted is that you are a joke. A position that your posts tend to encourage.

OOOOH SICK BURN!
 
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HexRei

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Again though we are in agreement with the idea that it is not unlimited, we just disagree on what that limit should be.

You draw the line at tanks and fighter jets, and I draw the line at semi-automatic firearms with large capacity magazines and pistols/revolvers (basically hunting rifles and hunting shotguns are the only thing that should be allowed in one's home, all others must be kept at a licensed range or club).

We just have to meet somewhere in between (please though, don't insult me because you are upset at where I have drawn my line).

oh stop it with these "lines" you want to make up.

I don't agree with you on anything so don't flatter yourself.

I applied common sense using the limits already enacted in law which is something you do not seem to understand. These lines you insist I'm drawing - they exist already within the collective of lines that have existed for the last 70 years. You just want to draw some new ones to accommodate and validate your argument.

I didn't draw any line at having a tank or fighter jet. I think I already told you this before but you can have a tank or fighter jet. A tank would be cool to have, there are no US Federal restrictions to owning a tank with a demilitarized (AKA "de-milled") main gun (meaning its been disabled) - you can even buy one on line - just pass the background check and comply with the NFA’s regulations and get your bank account warmed up and have a blast. Heck, I'd like to have a fighter jet myself, and those can be purchased also. Those aren't me drawing any lines, those are the laws "lines".

We don't need to meet any place. Why is it that you gun control advocates are constantly seeking validation? Every one of you do, its a defining trait for you guys. Did your moms or dads not approve of you enough? Or maybe your first grade teacher did not approve of you enough? For goodness sake's, be an adult and just stand up and say what you have to say and stop seeking validation for it by having "lines" and needing to "meet somewhere in between" and seeking "agreement".

You argue disingenuously and deceptively with all this validation stuff you crave so much.

What!? You are telling me I can't have a main gun!? That is like me telling you that you can have an AR-15 but it has to be demilitarized or disabled. You are arguing against yourself.

If you have the right to own an AR-15 with a 30 rd magazine I should have an equal right to a tank (which by definition* has a cannon on it, else it is just a green tractor).

Your ridiculous argument is equating a green tractor to a tank. Don't be stupid.

By 'line' I mean our definition of where the limit is, and whether you like it or not you have drawn the line, although it has moved precipitously over time. Now you are saying you can own a green tractor but not a tank. That is your line. It is like saying you are not pregnant, you just have a baby growing in you.


*Tank: 2. a heavy armored fighting vehicle carrying guns and moving on a continuous articulated metal track.

now you're just being silly.

Its a fact of life, you can not always have what you want because someone else has that something else or something else you think is equal to what you want. Life does not work that way, an adult would know this.

what green tractor?

You want to buy a tractor too? Why not just equip the tank for tractor use and use the tank?

I never said you can't have a main gun. Sure you can have a main gun on your tank. You can still have a main gun on the tank you buy, its just has to have been rendered incapable of being fired (de-milled). If your tank complies with law for you to be able to purchase and have it you can have it.

On the other hand I would not buy a rifle that could not be fired if I wanted one that could be fired. My rifles and magazines comply with law for me to purchase and have them so why should the same standard not be applicable to you for a tank purchase but it is applicable to you so go ahead and get that tank if you want and stop bitching about it.

If you want to spend your money on that tank you made your choice and that's your choice so enjoy your tank. I made my choice and you can get yours too so there is no reason to keep whining about it.

There is no such thing as an AR-15 actually, and if there was it would need to be de-milled before being sold to the public. There has not been an actual AR-15 since the mid 1960's. Today the term AR-15 is a generalized familiarization and marketing term (and has been since the 1960's), there is no such thing as a genuine AR-15 any longer. The Modern Sporting Rifle (MSR) pattern rifles today are not AR-15's and never have been. MSR's today are a variation of the approved ATF rifle definition, they have never been made for the military and are not spec'd to meet military or legal standards as an "assault rifle".

there you go with your lines again. grow up.

Hah, ha... stop it with your marketing. Trying to change the name to confuse and hide the facts. Sport rifle... my goodness...

Funny, you can still buy what you say doesn't exist right here;

https://grabagun.com/firearms/rifles/ar ... -ak47.html

They have a whole section called "AR-15 rifles". So when they want to sell them to people with small penises they call them AR-15s, when they want to hide the truth they call them "sport rifles". Much like your confusion with the word "line" you are getting caught up in terminology. Who gives a shit what it is called, an upset 18 year old shouldn't be able to go out and buy one and have it in their bedroom.

AR-15 is a generalized marketing and familiarization term. There is no such thing as an actual AR-15 since the mid 1960's.

AR-15 : The AR stands for "Armalite rifle". Your link are ruger manufactured rifles using the term AR-15 for marketing.

basically: Armalite made an AR-15 intended for the military. They failed to market it to the military in the 1960's. Colt bought the patent, redesigned, and got the military contract and the military designated it the M-16, the AR-15 then ceased to exist as a rifle. It was never a civilian rifle. Colt is the only company in the world that can legally make a real AR-15 and if they did make one it would be a military only weapon because that's what a real AR-15 was.

The rugers are not AR-15's, just have the marketing term attached to them that's all.

Congratulations, you found the AR-15 marketing term but no actual AR-15's. No, there is no such thing as an actual AR-15 rifle any longer. There is just the marketing term attached to legal civilian pattern-looks style modular rifles that are permitted under law for civilians and that's what you are looking at with your link.

You can buy a rifle with the term AR-15, but you can not actually buy an actual AR-15. Armalite sold the last of the actual AR-15's in stock to the government in the 1960's.

I am not sure there is any point in imparting factual information to people who think the already know so much that they don't need to know more. Dunning-Kruger effect. They will just keep downvoting you.
 
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HexRei

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Yeah, I remember when Ars was about open speaking about science, tech, and yes, politics. When did it become a feature for downvoting people? Honestly I think this feature should be disabled. There is moderation but this thugging on people because they dont have the same views of the milliennials, I dont think that was Caesar's intent.
 
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HexRei

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No fees for the licensing. Paid for by the tax on gun and ammunition sales.

so lets see, you want a fee imposed on the exercise of a right thus in effect making it a privilege and doing away with the right. You know, like dictatorships do sometimes to abolish their country "constitution" rights by controlling exercise access by fee (or other burdensome restriction) so they can keep the appearance of having a constitution with rights.

I say the US government requiring a "fee" be paid to anyone to exercise a right is wrong, discriminatory, and unconstitutional.

But my statements are BS and yours aren't. Yeah, you keep thinking that.

How long have you been fascist and racists?
Well yeah, they all bullshit. You already pay state sales tax on firearms and ammunition, and manufacturers and importers also pay federal excise tax on those same firearms and ammunition. In other words, the US government is requiring a "fee" be paid by anyone to exercise that right, though technically, once the firearm has been purchased, you could manufacture your own ammo.

sales tax is not a fee for exercise of the right because purchase is a personal choice.

By that logic, nor is insurance because you can choose not to purchase the gun and so have no need for insurance.

Requisite insurance is a whole other bundle of contention that I dont think we need to add to this fire...
 
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HexRei

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JohnDeL wrote:

If you own a radio station, then you do pay a fee for having the first amendment available. I've had to pay the fee for the VHF radio on my boat.

No you don't pay a fee to have the first amendment available to you. The first amendment is available to you all the time, its free. What you are paying for is your choice for a method to let others know what you are saying.

And the Second Amendment is available to you all the time. What you are paying for with insurance is your choice of a method to exercise it.

JohnDeL wrote:
Like the sales taxes that they have to pay to buy the weapons and ammunition.

No. sales tax on "weapons and ammunition" is a tax on the persons personal choice to purchase a method of exercising their right, not a tax on the exercise of the right.

That's a distinction without a difference.

But let us go with your argument for a moment. If the government taxes the sale of weapons and ammunition based on the number of people killed by that class of weapon (as legally defined) and uses the proceeds of that tax to pay for the damages done by that class of weapon, then you should be OK with it, even though it is insurance in all but name.

ITs a huge scam. I own a lot of Progressive and its been a moneymaker but it feels evil. Government mandated because of lobbying.
 
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HexRei

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When the same arguments by the same person are rebunked three or more times without new information, it's a good sign that person is incapable of intellectual honesty and is not arguing in good faith.

There's an easy solution to the temptation to explain Yet Again why the troll is wrong that has the side benefit of not causing everyone else whose header is flagging there are new posts in this forum, when in reality, it is the same interchange DC al coda, redux. It involves that little eyeball button.

Give the troll the last word. Few people here will see it unless someone quotes him.

Saying that you dont agree with someone is not what debunking is. He's made a lot of strong points supported with data. Mostly this is a disagreement in opinion, not a lack of good faith arguments.
 
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HexRei

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When the same arguments by the same person are rebunked three or more times without new information, it's a good sign that person is incapable of intellectual honesty and is not arguing in good faith.

There's an easy solution to the temptation to explain Yet Again why the troll is wrong that has the side benefit of not causing everyone else whose header is flagging there are new posts in this forum, when in reality, it is the same interchange DC al coda, redux. It involves that little eyeball button.

Give the troll the last word. Few people here will see it unless someone quotes him.

Saying that you dont agree with someone is not what debunking is. He's made a lot of strong points supported with data. Mostly this is a disagreement in opinion, not a lack of good faith arguments.

Then replace "debunked" with "rebutted."

We can disagree on what a strong argument is. What he is saying is mostly common misperceptions about how taxes and fees work in the Constitutional system. The only thing he has going for his argument is Scalia's contention that "well-regulated" can be ignored.

Bear in mind if the conservatives think Roe v Wade can be set aside, then District of Columbia v. Heller can be, also, and on more firm legal footing.

Be aware that wanting to legally own a gun does not mean you want to repeal Roe vs Wade. I sure as hell don't.
 
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